Discussion of the Best News in the World, the Gospel of Jesus, and related topics
Eternal Life, Good News, Gospel, grace, Jesus, love, Salvation
This lady did a great job!!
Sep 01, 2012 @ 05:18:02
I don’t get how the message that God is so righteous and holy that he can’t tolerate your existence without killing someone first, is good news. It seems to me that Love ought to be the motive for forgiveness and Love doesn’t need to kill in order to forgive. I don’t see how adding the crime of murdering an innocent victim to the previous sin helps.
Sep 01, 2012 @ 18:37:09
No one killed! The Son GAVE His life away for me and others!
So you see correctly–no one killed, unless you want to look at the religious Jewish establishment.
Sep 04, 2012 @ 05:44:58
Well, that is not exactly true.
According to John 3:16 it was God the Father who gave. The son asked in the garden of Gethsemane asked to be released and God refused. Hebrews 9:22 says that sin cannot be forgiven without the shedding of blood. Why? That makes no sense. Presumably it was God that made that rule, so it really was God the father that demanded the death of Jesus as a requirement for your forgiveness. Can anyone explain why? That doesn’t seem loving to me. It seems very abusive, and unjust. It does not seem to me that justice would allow, let alone require the killing of an innocent person in order to forgive a sinner. It seems to me that forgiveness is founded in love, and doesn’t need death. As an example, as a father, I did not need to kill anything before I forgave my rebellious 2 year old or my teenager. If I had, I am certain you would consider me either insane, or evil.
How do you explain God requiring the death of Christ as a sacrifice without making God evil?
Sep 04, 2012 @ 21:22:09
You have some very good questions here. I don’t know that I can address all of them and maybe there is need just to “address” some critical thoughts here. I put address in quotes because I don’t know that I can address–that will have to be God who ultimately addresses these questions for you.
John 3:16, the father gave us his son by sending him into the world. The son asked to be “released” and God (the Father I presume) refused. I want to focus not on the Father here but the son. Jesus words is His connecting to his father here are the critical part. This plan was not just the Father’s plan, the father, son and spirit developed the plan and desired deeply to commit to that plan and to execute it. Jesus, the same–he was committed. What we hear in in Luke 22 is the struggle with the anguish of what that death meant–struggle in the flesh. But what we also hear is a resoluteness to commit to the plan which had been conceived and committed to long before. “nevertheless, not my will but yours be done.”
Jesus was the perfect sacrifice for sin because he was “without spot and without blemish”. He was perfect because He did not sin.
Why a sacrifice for sin? The best approach to that is to understand that God is a just and holy God. My sins, your sins, your daughter’s sin must be paid for us to enter into the relationship God wants for us and with us. Do you want that with him?
Sep 05, 2012 @ 01:42:44
Do I want a relationship with him? Everyone has a relationship with God. It is impossible not to, even if the relationship is antagonistic, or in my case agnostic. I can’t answer that until I can figure out what kind of a person He is. Why would you want a relationship with an abuser? The traditional gospel doesn’t sound good to me. It sounds abusive. As I said before, why would you ever want to have a relationship with anyone who couldn’t tolerate you without a sacrifice first?
I “get” Christ and if God is like Christ, then we are good. The problem is that Christ claimed to be one with the Father, so if Christ’s character is somehow contaminated by the character of the father, then I can’t understand why anyone would want to have anything to do with either one.
Jud here: I am going to add my response tagged on to yours because wordpress sometimes does this, it doesn’t give a reply directly to another’s comment.
My view is that everyone has a relationship to a god–that is an idol. Every culture, society, community, social group, etc., offers idols. We all accept and bind to one of more of those idols. I’ve done and done it non-self consciously.
Abuse here: the abuse occurred by the hands of sinners of the day, the Jewish heirarchy and Rome and its government. They killed an innocent man. In their killing, were they fulfilling the master plan–yes. Were they forced to kill the Christ–absolutely not, they did it by their distorted standards and laws. The taking of this life is actually proof of why we need the grace which is made available to us because he gave his life for us and made the grace available. It is in a sense a paradox but valid nevertheless.
A beautiful picture is painted about God and his relationship to people, his people if the time is taken. It starts in the book of Genesis and is revealed throughout all the rest. We get a grand view of God’s view of the History he wanted to create in the Old and New Testaments both.
antinyx I want for you a great journey as you explore and ponder the implications of the teachings of Jesus and His disciples. Have a great day!
Sep 06, 2012 @ 21:44:25
Thank you for your good wishes. I hope someday to see the beauty you apparently see. I have spent time. I graduated with a religion major and have spent my whole life studying. Maybe I am just blind in this area.
One thing I learned when my kids were young was that if I followed the example of God the “Father” in the old testament by spanking my kids and driving them from me the way God did to Adam and Eve in the Garden, and later the Israelites, then I may have gained outward compliance, but ultimately I only succeeded in turning mistakes, or even disobedience into rebellion of the heart. When I treated them the way Jesus treated Mary, or Mathew, by forgiving them freely (without retribution or sacrifice) and drawing close to them by spending time doing with them what they liked to do, then we drew closer, and our mutual perspectives changed, and the rebellion melted away and became just a learning experience.
I can’t help wondering how much sorrow could have been avoided in this world if God had responded to Adam and Eve like Christ rather than the way he did. I guess even God makes mistakes. And His mistake cost Him some pretty severe consequences, the deepening of the human rebellion, and the death of His son. Maybe instead of being angry at Him we should just feel sorry for Him and forgive Him. (But if you are a parent trying to figure out how to raise your kids, take some advise from an old man. Don’t follow God’s example. Follow Christ’s instead.)
Sep 08, 2012 @ 19:27:14
The “good” father example to me now is the father of the prodigal son. He understood fatherhood.
Evaluation of what happened in Eden is complex. What happened there is spiritual warfare. Yes, we pay dearly what decisions there. Not fair? Maybe so. The warfare still rages and consequences still being felt. I don’t put the mistakes to the God. I see that actions have consequences and history is still validating that. So, I’m okay with the history I read in old and new testaments. The promise and experience of deliverance from my predicament and into better relationship has been satisfying and sought after by me. I am enjoying this journey, even with the bumps and hard knocks.
Blessings on you.
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